Docs Nov '09 - Questions

Not everyone can afford the time to go through these big doc dumps so I've made some notes here and we can discuss on the main blog. The docs are really confusing and as usual raise more questions than they answer. This is all just my opinion of them and what they may mean.

1. The media pounced on results of the liquid in the Gatorade bottle and syringe that appear to show evidence of chloroform. My first thought about this bottle and syringe is that it has nothing to do with it. Just a hunch, that's all. Although the report does show traces of chloroform, it is questionable as to whether there is enough to be lethal. On top of that, the liquid contains ethanol and testosterone. We have to bear in mind when reading these results that they have been asked to screen for Chloroform. It's only my amateur guess, but I think it can be found in small traces in lots of things, if it's looked for. For instance, Gatorade itself contains 93mg of chloride. Plastic bottles that are produced to be thrown away contain all sorts of chemicals. If you've ever reused one you'll have noticed the flavor of your water changes and you can detect the chemicals. Some of the chemicals that showed up in the tests could also be attributed to ordinary detergent. Ethanol could mean the bottle contained alcahol. The thing that stands out to me is the testosterone, and the fact that the syringe was inside a toilet roll in the bottle. I just can't imagine Casey using a toilet roll for anything to do with it. This sounds like someone was trying to hide the syringe from site which is at odds with her carelessly dumping the body round the corner in the first place. IMO this evidence has not got anything to do with Caylee but was thrown there by someone who was taking illegal steroids. Gatorade is a sports drink..sort of.
Also, I just can't understand why Casey would inject Caylee when she could have just put it in her drink or food. However, we do have the computer search etc, but after some research, I think perhaps the defence may be able to provide other explanations for the compound in the bottle/syringe.

2. I found it worth noting that the liquid in the Crystalite bottle that was in the car was urine. Why the heck would Casey have a bottle of urine in the car? One thought came to mind and that is related to the pregnancy test that was found. I know you're not supposed to do it this way, but did Casey pee in the bottle and then dip the test wand in? Who knows whether the pregnancy test has anything to do with Casey, but I can't think of any reason to have urine in a bottle. In the docs it said that LE declined to have the urine dna tested. This is odd as I would've thought it may as well have been tested to at least confirm whether or not it was Casey, Caylee or whoever.

3. If not chloroform then what? I think it's worth noting that the test result on the hair mass showed a "possible trace of Clonazepam". This is a very strong sedative. Interestingly, it is used for seizures, among other things such as anxiety.

4. The items tested from the trunk (Q22-Q45) which include spare tyre cover, trunk liner etc also showed traces of chloroform. Again, It's still not clear whether this is really indicative of manner of death or the natural occurrence of chloroform.

5. The second blanket. This may or may not belong to Caylee. In the docs it tested positive for blood elements. The label was "Koala baby". It had purple and pink flowers on it. Looking the brand up, they are sold at Target, Toys R Us, Amazon etc. They are usually for babies but up to 3 year olds can still drag them around as a comforter etc. The interesting thing about this is that they are often sold in sets of 2 or 4. If it does actually belong to Caylee it could well be part of a set, as as it is likely to have been bought when she was a baby, it would clearly have nothing to do with Zanny and could maybe be tied to the A's house.

6. Items that tested positive for blood elements. The t-shirt, whinnie the pooh blanket, other blanket, laundry bag she was found in, the napkins that were in the rubbish bag from the trunk. Notably, the shorts did not.

7. Items tested for dna. There are two statements in the docs relating to different items tested. For some items it stated; "No STR typing results were obtained from the dna recovered". and for others; The STR typing results obtained from the tested specimens are not eligible for Codis entry". This is apposed to others that said "No detectible dna or STR results were obtained. So, if I've understood this correctly, in these docs they did find dna on the following items.
Q104 tape, Q237 bottle, Q240 syringe, Q245 rug from the A's, Q316-318 tape, the gas can and the napkins that were in the trash in the trunk. I couldn't see where these things were elaborated on in these docs. The following items were. The comb tested for both Caylee and Casey. The hair iron that Casey said Zanny gave her tested for female dna not inconsistant with Casey and the bed pump which the nanny also used tested for a mixture of male and female dna but there is not enough to get a full male dna but the female dna is consistent with Casey.

Anyway, I find it so confusing I thought this would help me and a few others to try and get our head round it all. Like I said, it raises more questions than answers for me. It does sound like there are dna results that weren't summarised as to who it belonged to. I expect a lot of it will be Caylee's, some tests rule out Zanny and we can hope that they have found something to absolutely link Casey to the scene.

Kiwi thanks for this post. Very interesting.

Decomp fluids are mentioned in the entomology report a couple times. Were those tested? I haven't read every doc, but have not seen that yet. Do decomp fluids contain DNA? Can it be proved that decomp fluids are human in origin?

Anyone know more about this or read anything about it in the docs?

From http://www.wftv.com/_blank/18740668/detail.html

"On 12-15-08 I received a letter that had been mailed to the Forensic Unit by an unknown person. The letter was addressed to “Lee”. The letter appeared to be a photocopy with copies being sent to the media and the Sherriff’s Office. The letter was shown to Detective Yuri Melich. The letter was photocopied to be retained in the case file. The envelope (J-60008, 1) was turned over to the Evidence Section."

Have you guys heard about this letter before? Has it been released?

Kiwi -

Addressing your questions

#1 - Was wondering same - is the syringe/Gatorade bottle related to the remains? I have two thoughts. One being could Casey have planted it? Did she want it found? Her cell phone ping info from the early morning of July 2 puts her in the area of Caylee's remains, Lee's house and the Anthony house at 4:48 a.m. Makes me wonder if Skank intentionally went back to the place she left Caylee and left the Disney bag w/contents to try to frame someone? She had visited Jesse's place to shower (why?) on July 1st!!!

My second thought: from what I've googled about making chloroform, it seems that after the ingredients are mixed the solution forms layers, and the chloroform settles to the bottom. Maybe the solution was mixed in or poured into the Gatorade bottle and then the syringe was used to draw the chloroform from the bottom of the bottle. I'm guessing Skank was able to get a syringe from Sindy's workplace, or maybe from one of her heroin using pals, Amy or Ricardo. Not sure the syringe was used to inject poor little Caylee. Could have been just a way to get to the home-made chloroform.

#2 - Hadn't put the urine together with the pregnancy kit - good question!! Can't fathom a reason for no DNA test there!

#3 - Cindy was taking some anxiety meds - still looking for a link . . .

#6 - Was Caylee even wearing the shorts? They were in remarkably good shape considering the trauma to/scattering of the remains.

#7 - Very little DNA info plus MANY missing pages in doc release make me think there is much we haven't seen!! And I think it is important that no female DNA has been found that is not linked to an Anthony. Makes the existence of a nanny much less credible.

Kiwi -

Interesting read - Gatorade bottle/syringe:

http://www.thehinkymeter.com/?p=523

george_anthony wrote:Kiwi thanks for this post. Very interesting.

You're very welcome George. Either I'll have to get up earlier or you'll have to stay up late one day so we can get together. I miss you

mom_in_il wrote:Decomp fluids are mentioned in the entomology report a couple times. Were those tested? I haven't read every doc, but have not seen that yet. Do decomp fluids contain DNA? Can it be proved that decomp fluids are human in origin?

Anyone know more about this or read anything about it in the docs?

In my mind, the blood products that were found in the trunk liner etc were tests on the stains, aka decomp fluids. The docs are incomplete as in they show that the test was positive but don't have any dna results for it in this dump, assuming there was enough to do dna testing.

mom_in_il wrote:From http://www.wftv.com/_blank/18740668/detail.html

"On 12-15-08 I received a letter that had been mailed to the Forensic Unit by an unknown person. The letter was addressed to “Lee”. The letter appeared to be a photocopy with copies being sent to the media and the Sherriff’s Office. The letter was shown to Detective Yuri Melich. The letter was photocopied to be retained in the case file. The envelope (J-60008, 1) was turned over to the Evidence Section."

Have you guys heard about this letter before? Has it been released?

I remember that but I don't think we ever saw it in the media. Maybe LE prevented it's release? Pehaps this relates to the "he knows what he's done" comment.

mom_in_il wrote:Kiwi -

Addressing your questions

#1 - Was wondering same - is the syringe/Gatorade bottle related to the remains? I have two thoughts. One being could Casey have planted it? Did she want it found? Her cell phone ping info from the early morning of July 2 puts her in the area of Caylee's remains, Lee's house and the Anthony house at 4:48 a.m. Makes me wonder if Skank intentionally went back to the place she left Caylee and left the Disney bag w/contents to try to frame someone? She had visited Jesse's place to shower (why?) on July 1st!!!

My second thought: from what I've googled about making chloroform, it seems that after the ingredients are mixed the solution forms layers, and the chloroform settles to the bottom. Maybe the solution was mixed in or poured into the Gatorade bottle and then the syringe was used to draw the chloroform from the bottom of the bottle. I'm guessing Skank was able to get a syringe from Sindy's workplace, or maybe from one of her heroin using pals, Amy or Ricardo. Not sure the syringe was used to inject poor little Caylee. Could have been just a way to get to the home-made chloroform.

#2 - Hadn't put the urine together with the pregnancy kit - good question!! Can't fathom a reason for no DNA test there!

#3 - Cindy was taking some anxiety meds - still looking for a link . . .

#6 - Was Caylee even wearing the shorts? They were in remarkably good shape considering the trauma to/scattering of the remains.

#7 - Very little DNA info plus MANY missing pages in doc release make me think there is much we haven't seen!! And I think it is important that no female DNA has been found that is not linked to an Anthony. Makes the existence of a nanny much less credible.

Very good questions Mom. The shower at Jesse's has me stumped too. Unless she just wanted an excuse to go to Jesse's because Tony was away. That girl couldn't be alone for 5 seconds.
If she planted the Gatorade bottle, why would she put it in a Disney bag which kinda points in her direction?
The reason I think the pregnancy test could belong to casey is that I just can't for the life of me think of any reason for a bottle of urine to be in the car. I have visions of Casey squatting beside the car(thanks to a pic we saw), peeing into the bottle and doing the test. Reason; maybe she had just bought the test kit, needed to pee and was too impatient to wait until she got somewhere. It's a stretch, I know. If she threw the test away, why wouldn't she throw the urine away? Casey's mind works in mysterious ways and in a way her being pregnant or not does relate to Caylee. She's just too lazy to have thrown the urine away.
I remember there was a list of meds that LE took from the A's house in an earlier doc dump. I'll have a look for it too.
I think Caylee was wearing the shorts. I read in the autopsy report(or somewhere) that the animals grabbed the trunk of the body, separating it. While a t-shirt wouldn't fall off, the legs would fall out of the shorts if tugged. Can't bear to think about it.

mom_in_il wrote:Kiwi -

Interesting read - Gatorade bottle/syringe:

http://www.thehinkymeter.com/?p=523

Thanks Mom. This is brilliant. Some peeps are so smart. I guess we'll have to wait for the trial, but I'll be a bit sceptical about it til then.

I've just remembered something. I'm trying to find the docs that list the drugs that were taken from the A's house because we wanted to see if there was any clonazepam included. I THINK I CAN REMEMBER A SYRINGE WAS ON THAT LIST AND WE WERE DISCUSSING IT AT THE TIME WONDERING WTH CA WOULD HAVE THAT FOR.
Am I imagining this or can anyone else remember? Also, if anyone can help find the evidence list I would be eternally grateful!

kiwimom wrote:I've just remembered something. I'm trying to find the docs that list the drugs that were taken from the A's house because we wanted to see if there was any clonazepam included. I THINK I CAN REMEMBER A SYRINGE WAS ON THAT LIST AND WE WERE DISCUSSING IT AT THE TIME WONDERING WTH CA WOULD HAVE THAT FOR.
Am I imagining this or can anyone else remember? Also, if anyone can help find the evidence list I would be eternally grateful!

Good thought, Kiwi...i don't recall near as much as you, at this point....Sis...It wouldn't be so far fetched to believe that came from the A's....In my searching for other stuff, I'll keep an eye open for that list...Brain goes into overload with this case...I'm stuck on wanting to know what's been found, if anything in the vacuum and the other crap LE took....(from "cleaning the car", and washing the pants...Want to see what results came off the FF pants she wore, and can't find it yet......There is mention of results from that..just can't find the FF results...FCITC!)

Clonazepam is also Klonopin and there are various generic names for Clonazepam and klonopin....if someone finds the prescriptions taken from the Anthony's let me know and I will look up the name in my nursing med book.

kiwimom wrote:I've just remembered something. I'm trying to find the docs that list the drugs that were taken from the A's house because we wanted to see if there was any clonazepam included. I THINK I CAN REMEMBER A SYRINGE WAS ON THAT LIST AND WE WERE DISCUSSING IT AT THE TIME WONDERING WTH CA WOULD HAVE THAT FOR.
Am I imagining this or can anyone else remember? Also, if anyone can help find the evidence list I would be eternally grateful!

I believe it was an infant syringe, from one of the early search warrants,

Safety First brand maybe, similar to this



Looking for early search warrant. . . .